ESS Podcast

[Laura Vogt]
[upbeat music] Berkeley Engineering is challenging, but taking care of yourself is part of succeeding, not separate from it. Hello, and welcome to the “Not So Secret Guide to Being a Berkeley Engineer.” I’m your host, Laura Vogt. And in this episode, we’re talking about wellness, what balance actually looks like, and how to build it into your life here at Berkeley. And today, I’m happy to welcome back to the “Not So Secret Guide,” Christine Jo. Hi, Christine. I’m so glad to have you back. Can you tell us about yourself?

[Christine Zhou]
Sure. Thank you for inviting me. Hello, everyone. My name is Christine Jo, and I’m one of the mental health counselors here at Engineering. And we established the satellite office since 2012, and now we have two counselors, and so with me and Denise. I mainly work with students one-on-one during counseling sessions, but also I consult with faculty and staff and provide training and workshops.

[Laura Vogt]
Yeah, I think you started with engineering about the same time as I did, so we’ve been on our little engineering journey together. So let’s talk about some of the biggest mental health challenges that you see students facing when they first arrive here at Berkeley.

[Christine Zhou]
Well, first of all, congratulations, you made it to Berkeley. What I see is a lot of the times adjusting to a new environment can be very challenging. For example, that it’s the first time for a lot of students moving away from home, and it’s the first time for one to kind of be in charge of one’s schedules, for example, when to get up, what to do with your free time. And there’s a lot of responsibilities involved, including, say, where do I get food, how to do my laundries, and what to do with the bank and money situation, and certainly academic pressures. And depending on where you come from, how prepared you are academically, and a lot of the times then people find it very challenging. It’s very fast-paced, and it’s very competitive, and we have huge classes, and sometimes it’s intimidating to ask for help. And also, one of the other things I see a lot of students is difficult to make friends. Again, we have a big campus and sometimes can be very overwhelming.

[Laura Vogt]
So what happens when we have these students that oftentimes are top performers in their high schools, and now they’re here, and they feel average and overwhelmed?

[Christine Zhou]
Well, I always use the analogy of a sports competition. The World Cup is going on right now. Everybody’s watching this summer. So if you’re from a team, you can be the best of your region or even the best of your country. Now you enter World Cup. And so now you’re playing top teams like Spain, Argentina, France, England. All of a sudden, you feel like you’re average. But does that really mean that you are less

[Christine Zhou]
of an athlete than before? It’s really not necessarily. So when we are moving into a more stressful or more competitive environment, and that’s when you started to feel a lot more overwhelmed, and so in this environment, it’s no longer about winning. And so most of the top athletes, when they are competing on this world level, and they’re focusing on the process instead of the outcome. So they accept the pressure instead of fighting it, and also if they made a mistake, and they do not dwell on it, and they can just move on and breathe and also learn from the mistakes and have a positive self-talk, but very realistic expectations because nobody knows when you enter a World Cup, you’re going to be the winner.

[Laura Vogt]
Students often hear the word wellness, but what does being well actually look like?

[Christine Zhou]
Well, I think I make it somewhat simple for first-year students. I say the most important thing is create a daily routine, because in high school, what you do in the day may be very much scheduled for you. You just go from classes to classes or move on to activities. But in college, and you can have a lot of freedom and choices, and your schedule is pretty much determined by other than the set classes, and you could do a lot of things on your own. So you can balance your academics, your extracurriculars, and also other activities, social events. And also the second thing I would say is that trying to pay attention to what you eat, eat a healthy, balanced meal, get enough sleep, and also get some physical exercise. We’re in California, and for those of you moving from out of states or in the cold weather, it’s great. You can actually do outdoor activities all year round. And the last thing I would say, social support network is very important, and it’s important to have somebody you can talk to when you’re struggling, and so have friends and family. And also seeking help from faculty, staff, mentors here on campus can really be helpful.

[Laura Vogt]
I was just recently reading something about a first-year student who got scurvy, and her doctor mother was horrified that [chuckles] her child didn’t know to eat enough fruits and vegetables while they were here because they were just eating ramen in their room late at night kind of thing.

[Christine Zhou]
That’s true. Most of the people don’t learn how to cook when they are actually living on their own and when they have to make choices in what they eat, because most of the times, our families, our mom will be like, “Eat this.”

[Laura Vogt]
Totally true. So how can a student tell the difference between a healthy stress and a stress that’s becoming a problem?

[Christine Zhou]
Well,

[Christine Zhou]
have you heard of this, like a bell curve that illustrates the relationship between the stress level and your performance? And so when you have zero stress, it’s not actually a good thing, and because you have zero motivation, you might be just sitting on a couch and watching TV and doing nothing. As your stress level increase, and usually people get more motivated, and that actually increase productivity. However, there is a peak of your performance. So there is an optimum stress level when you are actually performing at your top the best, and then soon after that, as the stress increase, and you will notice that your performance start dropping drastically. I would say that everybody needs to try to figure out what is the optimum level of stress that everybody can handle. Do not tip over.

[Laura Vogt]
What are some signs that you have seen that shows a student may be taking on too much?

[Christine Zhou]
Sometimes physically, I hear from students who say, “I’m so tired, although I got a lot of sleep, but I still feel like I wake up feeling very exhausted physically.” I also hear students say, “I have a hard time concentrating, and also it seems like I lose my motivation.” And interest. Mentally, sometimes I hear students say, “I’m feeling very anxious, I’m feeling scared. I have thoughts running through my head.” And negative feelings about oneself and feeling inferior, inadequate. It feels like, “No matter what I do, I’m not going to be good enough.” And also, another thing is that you notice the performance is going down, whether means that you’re missing deadlines, you’re skipping classes, you’re doing worse at exams. And also, sometimes relationship also struggles, and then you’re alienated from your friends or maybe partners, and people notice, and then you’re getting more frustrated or angry. So, all these are signs that maybe you’re getting too stressed.

[Laura Vogt]
We’ve been talking a lot so far about balance and not taking on too much and figuring out where the stress falls in there. But I think sometimes students might feel guilty that they’re not doing their studying or they’re not spending time with their friends. How do you help them, or what advice would you give them, or what should they be doing when that guilty feeling comes in?

[Christine Zhou]
Yeah, I think it’s a normal thing for a lot of people feeling. I have conversation with my student, I say, “Hey, it sounds like you haven’t been eating well, you’re not sleeping. And no wonder you can’t concentrate or you’re feeling tired.” But then the answer from my student immediately was like, “Well, but then I don’t have enough time to study. I have exam coming up,” or, “I have this project due tomorrow, so I really don’t have time.” So, I usually

[Christine Zhou]
use analogies a lot. With engineering students, I say, “Well, if you’re driving a car, if you really like the car, you want the car to run fast, what do you do?” You

[Christine Zhou]
have to put gas in your car, you have to take it to mechanics, you have to do the maintenance, right? And so, it’s similar. Our body, our mind is like, you have to take care of it. If you don’t take care of it or you just abuse it or you just use it, it’s going to break down. And just like any kind of machine, it’s going to shut down. So, you need fuels for your body and for your soul in order for you to be able to function. So that’s, yes, it’s cutting a little bit of your studying time, but on the other hand, I always ask my students, “Are you actually really being productive? You’ve been sitting there for five hours, for a whole day. How much work do you actually get done?”

[Laura Vogt]
So, we’ve talked about the balance act and how people are trying to figure it out. How do we start building those healthy habits? So, if a student wanted to start the semester with just three wellness habits, what would you recommend?

[Christine Zhou]
Yeah. I will say the first fuels for our body is food. [chuckles] So, I would encourage every student to eat regularly. Don’t skip meals. Sometimes when we’re getting caught up in work and we’re like, “We’re not really hungry.” But the reality is that by the time you are super duper hungry, it’s already too late, and you tend to overeat. And so, I would say set a time consistently to eat your meals. If you can’t really eat three meals a day, I would say at least two meals a day consistently. And trying to eat a balanced meal. I don’t like to sound like your mom, but [chuckles] eat some fruits and vegetables and proteins. Again, don’t just eat ramen, although that’s something that a

[Christine Zhou]
lot of students like to snack on. Snacks are snacks, they’re not meals. [chuckles] Try to still eat at least two balanced meals. And when it comes to sleep, I would say, a lot of times students say, “Well, I know I should go to bed every day at 10:00, but that’s impossible. I have projects due because I have to stay up late.” And that’s okay. What actually I tell my students is that wake up every day consistently at the same time is a lot more important than going to bed every day at the same time. Because when do you fall asleep? You don’t really have control over that, but you do have control over when do you wake up. And also, waking up consistently at the same time will set routine for you. Even if you go to bed at 3:00 in the morning, and you still wake up at, say, 8:00 in the day, you might feel tired for that one day, but don’t take nap. And don’t fall asleep until after 8:00, and the next day you will still wake up around 8:00. So, that’s how you can set consistent routine for sleep. And the last thing, I think I mentioned that before, is get some kind of physical exercise. You don’t need to go to the gym, but even walking around campus. Sometimes my students say they go to hike to the Big C. Just some kind of physical activities outdoors every day is going to be really helpful.

[Laura Vogt]
And how do those three things, the sleep, exercise, and nutrition, help with academic success?

[Christine Zhou]
It’s extremely important because it set a base for anybody to function. Because we have a very competitive environment, you literally need to be at your best in order to be able to compete. So, I would say, whether it’s a top athlete trying to perform or you’re here at Berkeley wanting to perform academically, it is extremely important to be able to pay attention to sleep, eating, and exercise.

[Laura Vogt]
And how can students create that routine? You had already mentioned that one of the first ones was setting a time so that you woke up at the same time every day. But how do you create the other routines in your day to make sure that you’re feeling balanced?

[Christine Zhou]
Yeah. I hear my students say all the time, “I can. I have class Monday, Wednesday, Thursday at 8:00, but I don’t really have class until 2:00 on Tuesday, Thursday, so I sleeping, so I’m going to try to catch up.” So yeah, I will say, sometimes your schedule definitely change. It’s not the same every day, but you can set a routine on things you have control over. For example, when do you eat your lunch or dinner? When do you wake up? When do you actually go for a run? You don’t really have Have to be consistent all the time, but within throughout the week, if you have two every day, you have maybe sleeping and eating, and throughout the week you have maybe two to three times where you go outside to do some exercise. You have some kind of consistency that you can have from week to week. When I say week to week, that includes your spring break or your weekend or during the finals. And so if you can be consistent throughout the whole semester, that really helps your body to learn to manage stress and to really help you to be able to function.

[Laura Vogt]
And I think that consistency can also help you as you’re building your social connection and feeling like you belong. Because I believe that many new students worry about making friends and making connections. So how important is that social connection to overall well-being?

[Christine Zhou]
Many students, and particularly in the beginning, it depends on where you’re coming from, but either way, you’re coming into a new environment where you used to have a very solid social support system, because in high school, you pretty much hang out with everybody all the time. Your schedule is set. You see the people pretty much every day, the same people. And also you go home, and then you see your family all the time. So your pretty much social life was sort of set for you in high school, but coming to college is really, really different. You’re living for the first time, you’re living in the dorms, you’re living on your own with strangers, and also you go to class, there will be like 500 people sitting in the class, and it’s really difficult to make connections with anybody. And also, another thing is, like I mentioned, that the school is very fast-paced, it’s very competitive. Sometimes it’s like even if you want to be able to socialize with others, you find that it’s very hard to find time. But having friends definitely makes life so much easier, but it’s just the essential part of college. Years later, when you look back at your college days, you’re not going to remember what you learned in your class. You’re going to remember those moments like you went on this trip with these friends and by the beach, you set a bonfire, and/or you late night, you cooked some ramens, and you sing karaokes. And all these things are going to become precious memories, and the friends help to normalize struggles. And also, we all know that when you’re struggling emotionally, whether you feel sad or feeling sort of hopeless, and if you have somebody who can share your feelings with, and you get support, feel connected.

[Laura Vogt]
What do you say to a student who gets into that comparison game between them and their peers of, “Well, they’re doing better than I am.”

[Christine Zhou]
I hear people say, “Yeah, everybody else had everything figured out. I’m the only one who is struggling.” No. Everybody’s [chuckles] trying to figure out things, and even if they already figured out something that you’re struggling with, they’re trying to figure out something else. So I wanted to say that college and also young adult, basically this is the time in your life, and it’s time to struggle. This is the time of your life to learn, and learning by itself is a process of trying to figure things out. So whether that means academically, you’re trying to learn and trying to figure things out, or personally, interpersonally, so emotionally. That’s part of the process of

[Christine Zhou]
navigating young adulthood.

[Laura Vogt]
And how do students build a support network, especially if they’re far from home?

[Christine Zhou]
Yeah. It’s a good question because, again, I mentioned that this is the first time for many of us moving away from home. It’s not going to be as easy, but I would say start by pay attention when you’re in class or going to lunch and participating in events, trying to approach people that you think that they are interesting or you seem curious about, you wanted to get to know them better. I always encourage my students to take initiatives rather than waiting for somebody else to approach you. There’s some kind of power in terms of choosing who you want to be friends with or who you want to date. And so introducing yourself is very simple. “Hi, my name is Christine. What’s your name?” Start a conversation, even if it’s brief. And you could say, “Hey, I noticed we take the same class together. Do you want to study together?” Form a study group trying to say, “Do you want to grab lunch?” So, another thing is don’t put all the eggs in one basket. So approach multiple people. Otherwise, I’ve had students say a lot, it’s like, “I’ve text this one friend of mine last week. I’ve been checking my phones every day and trying to see if they text me back.” And also, it’s okay when you get rejected. A lot of the times, students feel like, “I can’t

[Christine Zhou]
get rejected. I feel horrible.” I say, “Well, the problem is that you haven’t gotten rejected enough.” [chuckles] You got enough rejection, and you’re like, “Okay. That’s all right.” Then life moves on. The same mentality applies to when you’re looking for internship. So, and also, I would also say, just because you are far away from home, it doesn’t mean that a home is not there for you. You can still reach out to friends and family at home because I know that’s one of the things that some of my students will say, “Yes, I have a group of friends here, a support system here at Berkeley,” but nothing beats home, right? So during the times, and they can still go home and feel connected. Another thing I will say, other than friends, I also say faculty, staff, mentors, they could be also your support network. And do not be afraid to approach, ask questions, go to office hours, and talk to a staff member, find a mentor for you. So all these people are here to support you. So reach out. Don’t be afraid.

[Laura Vogt]
I want to switch a little bit more into maybe a heavier topic of imposter syndrome because it’s something that we hear a lot about here at Berkeley. So what is imposter syndrome, and how can students manage it?

[Christine Zhou]
Imposter syndrome, the definition is it’s like a persistent feeling that your accomplishments aren’t deserved, and sooner or later, people will find out you’re not as capable. So this applies to, I would say, a lot of the times, then some students will make it to Berkeley, and initially they struggle, but then eventually they started to be able to be successful, and they are doing well academically, but still they’re like, “Well, even if I got like an A in this exam, it must be just out of luck. I’m not as smart as others.” So I hear it a lot. And also, I would say, I hear it particularly often from students from actually underserved communities. Like, for example, you’re one of the few women in the class, and you might feel like if you get a good grades on the exam, it’s because of your luck. It’s not actually because your capability. I wanted to normalize that. I wanted to say that, and this is a very highly competitive environment, and particularly if you are one of the few students in the class in whatever way, and you’re going to feel a lot more pressure. And also, a lot of the students, when they are made it to Berkeley, is because they have this almost like, “I need to be perfect,” and so they have this perfectionism mindset. In order to be able to adapt to this competition or high stress, you need to switch your mentality, and you need to be able to accept that it’s okay to make mistakes, and I’m here to learn. Part of learning is learning from making mistakes and also setting realistic expectations. There’s a lot of smart and hardworking people here. Again, you’re going to the World Cup. Who says who’s going to be the winner? But you can learn from every single one of them instead of sort of feeling like you have to beat every single one of your classmates or your peers, and that’s just a lot of pressure you’re having on yourself. Instead of you could say, “I’m going to learn with all my peers, all these smart and hardworking individuals, and we’re all going to grow. We’re all going to make mistakes, but we’re all going to become better and stronger.”

[Laura Vogt]
Yeah. I often find myself falling into that hole of wanting to be perfect all the time, and I sent an email this morning out to all the new students that had the wrong dates on one of the blurbs. And so tomorrow morning they’re going to get a corrected email with the right information, and I’m trying to look at it as, well, at least they’re just getting another reminder of the information that I gave them the first time, even if the dates are different. There’s a quote by Winston Churchill that I think has been one of my favorite things that I’ve heard recently. It’s, “Perfection is the enemy of progress.” I do crafts in my spare time, and so how often have I done a craft and had it not turn out the way that I wanted it to and been like, “Hey, that’s actually pretty nice. Let’s try this whole new technique on something.” I’m almost 50, and I’m still having to learn how to change this belief process. So how can you support students, or how can students support themselves in changing that belief of being perfect to be successful?

[Christine Zhou]
Yeah. It’s a tough one. It is a tough one because I think a lot of people have the perfectionism for a reason. If they’re not seeking this perfection in their lives, they probably would not

[Christine Zhou]
have made it to Berkeley. Perfectionism is actually, going back to that motivation, stress. To a certain degree, having this aspiration to perfection, it serves as a motivation and also has aspiration. But the problem is that, how does this apply to this particular environment? This environment is highly competitive. It’s like going to the World Cup. How you play the game in a regional soccer match versus the national one versus going to the World Cup, you’re going to have to switch your mentality. In this environment, the mentality to be the winner mentality is basically everybody’s a work in progress. If you have that, “I need to be top one,” or, “I need to get a perfect GPA, I cannot make any mistakes,” it’s just going to hold you back. It is not going to help you to excel in it’s going to make it every mistakes makes, it’s magnified 100 times, and you’re going to feel like you would not be able to sort of grow or learn from it. The problem is that it’s so fast-paced, everybody already moved on. And so it’s kind of like a snowball thing. In this environment, to be able to quickly adapt and adjust and say, “Okay, I made a mistake,” or, “You know what? I could even fail something.” But it is an opportunity for me to try to see, okay, this is an area I don’t know how to work on, or I’m not very good at. What can I do? And then jumping to problem-solving mode and jumping to who can I do– where can I go to ask for help? Who can I ask help? Where do I get support? Focusing on that is really going to help you to sort of adapt and learn more quickly. It is very difficult to change on your own. I’ve heard students say that a lot because I am who I am because the past 20 something years, and this is the way how I’ve been functioned and lived, and it’s

[Christine Zhou]
particularly given everybody’s different experience, background, cultural, familial sort of circumstances. So sometimes, yeah, it’s difficult to change on your own, and that’s why I would encourage students coming and talking to one of us. This is actually our job, to help you, to try to figure out how to sort of navigate and how to change that mentality.

[Laura Vogt]
What would be your suggestion for students that experience that first setback, such as they failed an exam, or they’re just struggling in a class?

[Christine Zhou]
I would say reframing it from similar, like what you are [chuckles] reframing that little mistakes you made, and it’s an opportunity, right? If you have a setback, failed an exam, it’s an opportunity to learn and grow. How do I measure success rather than a

[Christine Zhou]
GPA or grade? What grade do I get? So you can measure success from how much you have progressed from your last exam. So are you making progress? Are you doing better? Are you learning more? And so that could be a way for you to measure how you are progressing. And also do not be afraid to get help and support.

[Laura Vogt]
So how should students know when it’s time to reach out for that support?

[Christine Zhou]
Yeah. When you tried everything on your own, that’s one of the things I hear from students when they come to talk to me, and I say, “Well, why did you come to counseling?” “Well, yeah, I’ve tried everything, and I’ve talked to my friends and family, and it still is not working.” And that’s

[Christine Zhou]
when. And similarly academically, I do think you should spend some time trying to figure things on your own, but if you’re feeling stuck and nothing is working, do not just let yourself to feel stuck, and just reach out and get some help.

[Laura Vogt]
What would you say to students who are hesitant to seek counseling because they think their problems just aren’t serious enough?

[Christine Zhou]
It’s usually a lot easier to fix or try to problem solve when the problem is not that serious. By the time you think, “Oh man, my problem is really serious,” well, sometimes then there’s not much we could do about it, right? For example, you already kind of like Can’t get out of bed, or you’ve failed multiple classes already, or about to drop out of school. That’s a worst-case scenario. We don’t want that thing to snowball to that extent, versus you’re just feeling a little bit stressed out, or you’re feeling a little lonely. In the beginning, you feel disconnected, or you had a little breakup or argument with your roommate or family. It seems very trivial, but when you just come in and have a conversation, and usually there’s a lot more we could do. So don’t wait until it becomes really, really serious.

[Laura Vogt]
Can you tell us about all the resources available here at Berkeley for students who may be struggling?

[Christine Zhou]
We have a lot of resources for mental health, and I want to strongly advertise for our satellite office. Again, it’s me and Denise Gauthier. We’re here. So I’m here full time, and I’m on campus in my office on Mondays and Tuesdays. Denise is with us 20 hours a week, and she’s in the office on Wednesdays. So we have a little bit different model compared with the Tan Center, the main counseling center is on the third floor of Tan. I use the analogy of primary care versus urgent care. Our office is more like a primary care office, and so it’s easier to access. You don’t have to go sit in the medical office, and you don’t have to walk down 20 minutes down there and 30 minutes up. And also, the threshold for counseling is really low. We have walk-in hours, Mondays 10 to 12, Tuesday 2 to 4, and Wednesday 1 to 3. You could literally just drop in and say, “Hi, I’m just here to have a chat.” So we start with a brief drop-in, and then we will go from there, try to figure out whether you want to schedule individual appointments, or if there are resources we know we can get you connected on campus. You could also call us if those times doesn’t work for you, the drop-in hours. I would just say call us anytime. My number is 510-643-7850. Denise’s number is 510-664-5479. You could call us anytime. Leave a message. We may not get back to you

[Christine Zhou]
soon. We do get back to you before the drop-in hours if you do call in during the drop-in hours. But we will call you as soon as we can, and we’ll go from there. The Tan Center, on the other hand, is more like a same-day, next-day appointment. So basically, if you’re in an urgent situation or whether there’s risk involved and whether it is danger to self or other people, you should just walk directly to Tan or call them at 510-642-9494, and you just say, “I wanted to speak to a counselor on the same day,” and then they will find somebody. We have many, many people on call, but also, we have same-day appointments and next-day appointments. And so if you call Tan Center to schedule appointment next week, they’re going to say, “You actually have to call us the day when you need the appointment, and we’ll find appointment for you.” It’s not an urgent situation, and you wanted to find the appointment two weeks in advance, then they will just say, “Call the satellite.” In addition to individual counselings, the Tan Center also offer groups and workshops, and every semester, they will be posted online if you’re interested, and you can let one of us know, and we’ll help you, or you can sign up on your own. And also in the University Health Services, and there’s our social services units, nutritionists talking about how to eat a balanced meal. We also have a huge psychiatry team, and also, we have a huge primary care. So when it comes to taking care of your body physically, emotionally, we do have a lot of resources.

[Laura Vogt]
And if a student takes just one message away from today about mental health and wellness, what do you want it to be?

[Christine Zhou]
Yeah. I will say take good care of yourself, physically and emotionally. You’re far away from home, from your family, and it’s the first time being on your own. Take it easy. Don’t rush. Be patient, and you will figure it out.

[Laura Vogt]
Well, thank you so much for being here today.

[Christine Zhou]
Thank you so much for having me.

[Laura Vogt]
It’s exciting to be able to have someone come back to the podcast and share a little bit different perspective on things and because you’ve been here before and talked about time management and things along those lines. So thank you so much for sharing about mental health and wellness with our incoming students.

[Christine Zhou]
Yeah, you’re very welcome. Like I said, don’t wait. Don’t wait till it becomes too serious, and stop by and say hi.

[Laura Vogt]
And thank you for listening to “The Not-So-Secret Guide to Being a Berkeley Engineer.” Remember, taking care of yourself is part of your success here, so build in that time to rest, recharge, and ask for support when you need it. And please check out the rest of the series for more tools to help you thrive at Berkeley. And we look forward to welcoming you to the College of Engineering this fall. [outro jingle]